This exchange was also on their site (try here).
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A Reply to Mark Humphrys
Friday, 15 May 2009
MPACIE is indeed a branch of the larger UK body,
and like its UK model it works tirelessly yet peacefully to raise the
Muslim profile, seeking conciliation and mutual respect. We honour and esteem the noble virtue of Jihad, but believe our struggle in this land is peaceful - our swords are our pens. In this regard, we follow the noble ayah of Allah where he commands us to 'fight them (the disbelievers) in the way they fight you'(9:36). The battle in this land is ideological, not physical. Our concern is Ireland and how it treats its minorities, in particular its Muslim population, accordingly you will not find any reference to any country that does not have a direct bearing on the situation for Muslims here. We make no apologies for that. We abhor any infringements on the rights that Allah has bestowed upon man, wherever and whoever that may be. You accurately assert some Muslim immigrants are unlikely to associate with MPAC. Your reasons however betray the real reason, fear. Like their UK counterparts, they will undoubtedly come to realise that assimilation is not the answer, for no matter what they do - they will always be considered different and never truly Irish. Sadly for their children, who are subsequently rejected by both communities (the host and the native) the difficulties are compounded and as we have seen in the UK, such disenchantment is fodder for extremists. There is no need to repeat the mistakes of the UK in this regard. Unfortunately, the freedoms that you espouse are the very freedoms being denied Muslims. On the issue of free speech, we find your mention of it disingenuous at best. You simply cannot talk about this freedom when there is an obvious inequality in speech resources. Regarding freedom of sexuality, we've seen nothing on your site indicating disagreement with the discriminatory affidavit that only Muslim men must sign, disavowing polygamy. It would appear that you too have reservations when it comes to freedom of sexuality, should we deport you? MPACIE does indeed support the blasphemy bill, and much to the consternation of hate-mongers and detractors we will not stoop to the level of gross insult and offence to get our point across. And that we believe is the criteria. If you can't present your case without resorting to affront, you have no argument at all and are simply demonstrating incivility. In the interests of societal cohesion and social order, this bill should be supported. |
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Mark: the possibility of a civilized debate is entirely
up to you, though you've done little thus far to inspire confidence.
Might I ask if you truly believe in a free society, for example would you be content to allow a country to determine its own rule of law, even if it were Sharia? If in the future, the majority of people in Ireland favoured Shariah as a rule of law, would you accept that, or would you oppose it? If you were to oppose it, how would the opposition manifest itself? |
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Mark, who made you the arbiter of what constitutes civilized? That's terribly presumptuous of you and a symptom of the problem - an arrogance of assumed superiority. I'm not Liam and again you expose your arrogance in assuming that only one person thinks things are not as they should be. If you consider equality a threat (and I can understand how you might) then the fault lies with you as you've not demonstrated in what ways you have a right to remain dominant. In what ways do you feel a belief in God is imposed upon you? Do you feel you have a right to impose your disbelief upon people? Should not countries be allowed to determine their own rule of law without interference? Would you oppose Saudi Arabia imposing Sharia in Ireland on the same basis as you advocate democracy be imposed? As you have expressed freely your opinions of Sharia, allow me the same liberty: properly implemented there is NO EQUAL to the liberty and justice that Sharia offers. Sadly,it has not been implemented fully for centuries and the western mix has resulted in the injustices people like you wrongly attribute to the Divine law. As a Muslim living in Ireland, I live under the fiqh of minorities, perhaps if you were to read up on that instead of scaremongering you might see what you present is unwarranted - you are indeed a threat in that you incite hate for no apparent reason. The website I hope will continue despite your misgivings. It fills a much needed void and serves as a voice for those who would otherwise be silenced. Irish Muslims do a disservice to themselves and future generations by allowing individuals like you to advocate inequalities, promote assimilation and promote the destruction of our culture and belief. A growing number are saying enough, and sites such as yours are wonderful as recruitment tools - keep up the good work. |
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Sharia law has no right to exist in any country on earth. Is that clear enough? Religion should be a private matter and not forced on people by law. If you don't believe that, you are a threat to Irish freedoms. I pose no threat to your liberty. It is disgraceful for you to threaten mine. — markhumphrys On the contrary, you pose a very clear and present danger to all Muslims in Ireland in that you are willing to forcefully expel those who do not agree with your ideology (I must admit it would be fun to see you try :))As Muslims we are quite content to see you follow your religion, as you too should be willing to permit us. The only talk of restriction is coming from your corner. 2. Anyone who supports Sharia, as you do, is spreading, not reducing, fear of Islam in Ireland. And then you complain that people are hostile to Islam! Well you're the one threatening them! What are you doing now, policing ideas? Yes, I support Shariah, yes I believe it is superior to ALL man-made laws, but NO, I do not see Shariah taking over except by the will of the people. 3. There are also many Muslims and ex-Muslims in Ireland and the UK who came here to escape from sharia. You are threatening them as well. What a silly comment, the only threats are coming from you - threats of expulsion (again I'd love to see you try), threats of intolerance, threats, threats, threats and more threats. Now if you'd educate yourself on the Fiqh of minorities then you'd understand our position here, but that would be expecting too much wouldn't it. Much easier to scaremonger and distort. 4. "If you consider equality a threat (and I can understand how you might) then the fault lies with you as you've not demonstrated in what ways you have a right to remain dominant." What on earth are you talking about? We already have equality. You and I are equal under the law. I am not in any way "dominant" over you. Sigh - would that we were, but then it requires some honesty to accept and admit that things are not how they should be. There is an inherent inequality in the application of the law that sees difference as somehow being worthy of less. It's always been that way, and the only way to bring about equality is to fight for it. You are right, you are not in any way dominant over me - it's only in your mind. 5. You are the one threatening that. You are the one saying that the ancient stories from your religion should be imposed on me and run my life. You are the one saying one religion (your one) should be dominant. Not at all, to you your religion, to me mine. But I suspect you don't want it that way hence your desire to push me into the private sphere. 6. "Do you feel you have a right to impose your disbelief upon people?" No. Not at all. Is that clear enough? You have a right to practice your religion, provided you leave me alone. I would be outraged if Ireland tried to prevent you practicing your religion. I haven't bothered you, but that hasn't stopped you writing nasty things about MPACIE, so evidently you while wanting to be left alone are wholly unwilling to reciprocate. 7. "you are indeed a threat in that you incite hate for no apparent reason." Rubbish. I am no threat to you. You are free to practice your religion. All we ask is that you leave other people alone to ignore your religion and practice their own, or none at all (like me). You have been left alone. Remember it was your antagonistic post on your site that prompted this response, it would appear that you are a 'one rule for yourself and another for everyone else' kind of person. Shame on you.
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And this one may really surprise you:
Why does this bother you anyway? Why are you sticking up for people who threaten my freedom?
You claim you do not threaten my freedom myself. But you support sharia, so your claim is false.
Anyway, back to MPAC. Does it threaten my freedom or not? It's hard to say. This whole discussion will certainly make people more afraid of MPAC. This was your chance to put our minds at ease, and you blew it with your support for sharia.
Consider this:
The majority of Britons (53 percent)
feel threatened by Islam:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1527192/Islam-poses-a-threat-to-the-West-say-53pc-in-poll.html
Islam has only been in Britain for a couple of decades, and already it has burnt its bridges!
That's because of sharia-threatening Muslims like you.
Also,
59 percent of Britons say all immigration should be halted:
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/196
which is far more extreme than my position.
Much of the population is
(or could easily swing)
to the right of me on these issues.
And people like you are encouraging that extreme reaction.
All they hear day after day from sharia-threatening Muslims like you
is the message loud and clear:
"Yes you are right to fear Islam".
I try to argue the case: "No, fear Islamism, not Islam". But people like you don't make it easy for me.
(At this point the weirdo calls me a racist, so I think it's time to bail out.)
(Some other weirdo then says that under sharia, Ireland's pubs will all be closed down, sex will be policed by religious maniacs, and the gays will be rounded up, and that's why we should support it. Thanks for making my point for me!)
who are reducing fear of Islam in the West.
Return to MPAC Ireland.
In response to a number of questions posed by
