The Clonskeagh mosque - The Halawa case - Debate with Patrick Brogan

Debate on Halawa with Patrick Brogan

Patrick Brogan, 11 July 2016, writes a different piece to the norm on Halawa. See tweet.

He deserves credit for reading my site and taking it seriously.

His dismissal of the mountain of evidence for Halawa extremism on my site is ludicrous, but at least he looked at it, which is more than can be said for most Halawa supporters. So credit for reading this site. But the article is full of problems.

My reply

Brogan misquotes me. He says about me: "On social media, he makes the claim that Hussein Halawa is for light wife beating and the killing of gays. He doesn't offer the evidence of when and where he said this. I think he might be putting the words of another cleric in his mouth. This other cleric is Yusuf al-Qaradawi."
This is wrong. I never said Halawa supported wife-beating. If Brogan linked all his claims to a source he would see that. I said Qaradawi supports wife-beating.
Also, I certainly do show where Halawa is quoted as calling for death for gays. Of course Qaradawi is quoted as calling for death for gays too.
He says: "Mark Humphreys [sic] uses a picture of his emergency passport to suggest he did actually burn it." Not exactly. I never believed that story, because there was no evidence. But the new passport is odd, and makes me wonder could the story be true after all. I am agnostic until more evidence emerges.
He does not deal with the massive mountain of evidence of Halawa MB links through the ECFR and other MB organisations. He does not read the detailed report: The Muslim Brotherhood in Ireland by Steven Merley. What is the ECFR in Brogan's universe?
"Egyptians Abroad for Democracy" is not a pro-democracy group. It is a MB group. The MB in fact despises democracy.
He says: "as we know, it was democracy and freedom that Ibrahim was searching for." Ludicrous. Halawa was fighting to oppress Egyptians under sharia law.
He says: "there is a link to a picture of the jihadi flag upon the stage that Halawa addressed the rally. The flag is there, but no Ibrahim. This could be a picture taken from anywhere at anytime." Not any time. It is from the MB protests of July-Aug 2013, that Halawa spoke at. And not anywhere. It is the same stage. And look who is on stage: Salah Soltan, who Halawa quoted in his speech as his leader at this time. Would Brogan like to address the fact that Ibrahim cited two anti-semites in his 3 minute speech?

So I don't think much of his apologetics. But still, fair play for reading the enemy. He is far more intellectually curious than Donal O'Keeffe.

His reply

Patrick Brogan replies underneath the original piece.

My reply

I originally had my reply on the page: The Irish left and the Halawas. Brogan says he does not see himself as in "the Irish left". Fair enough. He's not like the virtue-signalling Marxists shouting "racist" at anyone who criticises Halawa. So I've moved him to this page away from those dreadful people.
He doesn't consider me as "the enemy". Again, great. But you should see the abuse I get for opposing the Halawas. People block me, hurl gutter abuse, libel me, attack my professional life, complain to my employer. All because I do not support the Muslim Brotherhood guy. I am glad Brogan is different to Ireland's army of pro-Islamist leftists.

Short points:

About Hussein Halawa supporting wife-beating: "This refers to a comment Mark made on social media about Hussein Halawa." Link please? I never said Halawa supported wife-beating.
The Halawa quote on gays is from VG (Norwegian newspaper). See the bottom of the 30 June 2011 article. Here is a handy screenshot and translation.
"it is implied that he did burn the passport. Would this be fair?" No, it is not fair. I have no strong belief either way. I am agnostic. There is no evidence that a passport-burning video existed. On the other hand, the emergency passport needs explanation.
About Ibrahim's speech: "I don't see where he refers to Salah Soltan as his leader." And then Brogan quotes him saying Soltan is his leader!
"I don't see anything anti-semitic in his speech." That's not what I said. I said he cited two anti-semites as his leaders. He spoke in public for 3 minutes. He did not cite Daniel O'Connell or Edmund Burke. He cited two anti-semites, Soltan and Morsi. Says it all about the world he comes from.

Dismissing the mountain of evidence:

The link to Merley's report "The Muslim Brotherhood in Ireland" is indeed on my site. I'm not sure what issues Brogan has with the sources. The sources are many and varied, even including left-wing sources like The Irish Times. Maybe Brogan could give us a list of sources he would find acceptable?
"Maybe there are members of the Muslim Brotherhood that attend the Clonskeagh mosque". No, they run the mosque. If Brogan dismisses the mountain of evidence of MB links, I'm not sure what he wants as evidence. He needs the mosque leaders to say "We are MB"? That is never going to happen.
He complains that "Egyptians Abroad for Democracy" do not declare they are MB. Of course not! That is never going to happen. So no amount of other evidence will satisfy Brogan.

The absurd idea that Ibrahim supports freedom and democracy:

Brogan claims that Ibrahim Halawa wants the secular democracy that we have in Ireland to come to Egypt. This is not credible. If you wanted that, you would not support the MB.
There is no evidence that Ibrahim supports secular liberal democracy. When Ibrahim uses words like "freedom" and "democracy", he does not mean what we mean. If he did, he would not support the MB. The MB stands for sharia and oppression. And terrorism, too.
I certainly do think Halawa has done something wrong in trying to force sharia on Egypt. And if Brogan opposes sharia, he should oppose Halawa. None of this necessarily means that Halawa should be in prison. That is a different issue.

Ultimately, I am baffled by Brogan not seeing that the Halawas are hardcore MB. It seems the only evidence he would accept is if they said they are MB members. But that is not going to happen.

It is good to have a civilized discussion at least. But sorry Patrick, "ludicrous" is the only word for your dismissal of the mountain of evidence that the Halawas and all their associates are hardcore MB Islamists.

Muslim Brotherhood leader Salah Soltan says that the Jews kidnap people to kill them and use their blood for making bread.
Ibrahim Halawa cited this guy as his leader in his speech.

Muslim Brotherhood leader Mohamed Morsi says that apostates and proselytisers must be killed.
Ibrahim Halawa cited this guy as his leader in his speech.