Article: 64605 of alt.atheism Newsgroups: alt.atheism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh Path: lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!pavo.csi.cam.ac.uk!doc.ic.ac.uk!warwick!pipex!uunet!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!usenet From: clavazzi@nyx.cs.du.edu (The_Doge) Subject: Re: No *special rights* for gays! Message-ID: <1994Mar8.231647.2292@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> Followup-To: alt.atheism X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University of Denver for the Denver community. The University has neither control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users. Sender: The_Doge Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept. References: <2lfh4d$6l7@emoryu1.cc.emory.edu> Date: Tue, 8 Mar 94 23:16:47 GMT Lines: 147 Xref: lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk alt.atheism:64605 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:70434 In article <2lfh4d$6l7@emoryu1.cc.emory.edu>, Bill Anderson wrote: >Many of the FFs were Christian, a bunch were deists, and some >seem to have been closet atheists. None fit the mold of a >modern-day fundamentalist. I've tossed you into alt.atheism >for further info... > >[ Article crossposted from alt.fan.rush-limbaugh ] >[ Author was Clay Alberts ] >[ Posted on 4 Mar 1994 21:07:30 -0500 ] > > >All the information I have ever seen shows that the framers of the >constitution believed in God and the bible, and a lot of the principles >for the constitution were taken directly out of the bible. If you have >information showing otherwise I would like to see it. > The following info was originally posted on (I think) a.a by one e_p@unlinfo.unl.edu (edgar pearlstein): ================== Sometimes people of a fundamentalist leaning will say that the United States was founded on Biblical principles, or Christian principles. I have never seen a statement of any specifics to back up that assertion. But I did look over what I know of the Bible. Of the many foundations of our country, I was able to find two which are supported in the Bible, and several which run contradictory to the Bible. THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE. This is a document that justifies revolution against the established royal government. The Bible, however, says "the powers that be are ordained of God" (Romans 13:1-7), and "For kings, and for all that are in authority" (I Timothy 2:2), thus giving rise to the idea of divine right of kings. There is no mention of "consent of the governed" in the Bible, as the Declaration demands. While the Declaration deplores taxation without representation, Jesus says, regarding taxation, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's" (Matthew 22:21) FREEDOM OF SPEECH. I don't find in the Bible any defense of freedom of speech. On the contrary: "he that doubteth is damned" (Romans 14:23); "there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers...whose mouths must be stopped.." (Titus, 1:10-11); and "These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: ......and he that soweth discord among brethren." (Proverbs 6:16-19). The last passage could be construed as being against democracy, since anyone who runs for office against an existing administration is sowing discord. RELIGIOUS TOLERANCE. This is embraced in both the original Constitution (Article VI, paragraph 3) and in the First Amendment. Yet in the Bible we have: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" (Exodus 20:3); "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" (Exodus 22:18); "He that sacrifice unto any god save the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed" (Exodus 22:20); "He who is not with me is against me" (Matthew 12:30, Luke 11:23); "he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, [and] all the congregation shall certainly stone him" (Leviticus 24:16). Such stoning was actually carried out.(1 Kings 21:13) A REPUBLICAN FORM OF GOVERNMENT. Our Constitution demands this (Article IV, Section 4). But I find nothing in the Bible to support it. On the contrary, Romans 13:1-7 tells people to obey authority because it is instituted by God. "CORRUPTION OF THE BLOOD" is forbidden by the Constitution (Article III, Section 3, paragraph 2). In the Bible, though: "Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers (Isaiah 14:21). [However, the Bible does contradict itself on this: "... neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers" (Deut 24:16)]. Also: "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation" (Exodus 20:5, 34:7, Numbers 14:18, Deut. 5:9); "His blood be on us, and on our children" (Matthew 27:25). Bastards may not enter the temple, nor their descendants (Deut. 23:2). God even killed a baby because of a sin by its father (2 Samuel 12:14). Ahab escaped punishment for murder by making an elaborate apology, and his descendants were punished instead (I Kings 21:29). The doctrine of original sin is also against this part of the Constitution. SLAVERY. This was an important social and economic foundation of our country both before and after independence. It was an institution condoned by the founders and recognized and defended by the original Constitution (Article I, Section 2, paragraph 3; Article I, Section 9; Article IV, Section 2, paragraph 3). Slavery is mentioned and discussed many times in both the Old and New Testaments, but it is never condemned. On the contrary, it is codified, and made an inherited condition: Exodus 21:4ff gives rules for keeping slaves. Leviticus 25:44-46 says that heathen may be purchased as slaves, that their children become slaves, and that they are inherited as property by the owner's children forever. Other places that indicate that slavery is a hereditary condi- tion are: Genesis 9:25, Exodus 21:4, Corinthians 7:20. Deut 20:10-14 says that when you conquer a city, if it surrenders then all people inside it become your slaves; but if it doesn't surrender, then all males are to be killed and all women and children "take unto thyself". Luke 12:47-8 shows that Jesus approves of slavery, for he describes the conditions under which one should give a severe beating to a slave. 1 Timothy 6:1-2 tells slaves to honor their masters. In the book of Philemon, Paul sends a runaway slave, Onesimus, back to his former master. But this conflicts with the admonition in Deuteronomy 23:15 "Thou shalt not deliver unto his master the servant which has escaped..." So the Bible is on both sides of the 1857 Dred Scott case! TREATMENT OF THE INDIANS. Here is another place where one of the foundations of our country is justified by the Bible. "Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy....And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein.." (Numbers 33:52-53). This biblical injunction was obeyed many times by Americans. ======= And, of course, there's my own take on this: The_Doge's Christian Nation Challenge! (So far completely ignored) The challange is simple, really; provide the Biblical passages from which the following essential aspects of the American legal/governmental system have been derived: - government by officials elected by the governed (republican democracy) - separation of powers (executive, legislative, judicial) - trial by a jury of one's peers - presumption of innocence - freedom from cruel or unusual punishment - freedom from involuntary self-incrimination - freedom of speech and assembly - prohibition of the establishemnt of religion (could be a toughie!) - right to keep and bear arms (or establishment of a malitia; take your pick) - the concept (embodied in both the DOI and Constitution) that the power to govern resides *with the governed* and is granted *by them* to elected officials Secular and historical models and sources for all of these are available, some of them pre-dating your religion. Your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to come up with Biblical ones that are *at least* as clear. Without them, claims that the American system of government is based on the Bible are unsupported, no matter how many quotes you post demonstrating this or that founder's belief in a God of some sort. Well? [Followups directed to alt.atheism. I have no interest in the Limbaugh fan club.] --- ************************************************************ * The_Doge of South St. Louis clavazzi@nyx.cs.du.edu * * Dobbs-Approved Media Conspirator(tm) * * "One Step Beyond" -- Sundays, 3 to 5 pm * * 88.1 FM St. Louis Community Radio * * "You'll pay to know what you *really* think!" * * -- J.R. "Bob" Dobbs" * ************************************************************