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Islam in Ireland - Liam Egan - MPAC Ireland - 1st Exchange


1st Exchange with MPAC Ireland

In May 2009 I had an exchange with MPAC Ireland.

This exchange was also on their site (try here).



Guinness ad.
Under sharia, Guinness would be closed down.




From MPAC


A Reply to Mark Humphrys

Friday, 15 May 2009

jihadlogo.jpg In response to a number of questions posed by Mark Humphrys, we offer the following in reply:

MPACIE is indeed a branch of the larger UK body, and like its UK model it works tirelessly yet peacefully to raise the Muslim profile, seeking conciliation and mutual respect.


We honour and esteem the noble virtue of Jihad, but believe our struggle in this land is peaceful - our swords are our pens. In this regard, we follow the noble ayah of Allah where he commands us to 'fight them (the disbelievers) in the way they fight you'(9:36). The battle in this land is ideological, not physical.

Our concern is Ireland and how it treats its minorities, in particular its Muslim population, accordingly you will not find any reference to any country that does not have a direct bearing on the situation for Muslims here. We make no apologies for that.

We abhor any infringements on the rights that Allah has bestowed upon man, wherever and whoever that may be.

You accurately assert some Muslim immigrants are unlikely to associate with MPAC. Your reasons however betray the real reason, fear. Like their UK counterparts, they will undoubtedly come to realise that assimilation is not the answer, for no matter what they do - they will always be considered different and never truly Irish. Sadly for their children, who are subsequently rejected by both communities (the host and the native) the difficulties are compounded and as we have seen in the UK, such disenchantment is fodder for extremists. There is no need to repeat the mistakes of the UK in this regard.

Unfortunately, the freedoms that you espouse are the very freedoms being denied Muslims. On the issue of free speech, we find your mention of it disingenuous at best. You simply cannot talk about this freedom when there is an obvious inequality in speech resources. Regarding freedom of sexuality, we've seen nothing on your site indicating disagreement with the discriminatory affidavit that only Muslim men must sign, disavowing polygamy. It would appear that you too have reservations when it comes to freedom of sexuality, should we deport you?

MPACIE does indeed support the blasphemy bill, and much to the consternation of hate-mongers and detractors we will not stoop to the level of gross insult and offence to get our point across. And that we believe is the criteria. If you can't present your case without resorting to affront, you have no argument at all and are simply demonstrating incivility. In the interests of societal cohesion and social order, this bill should be supported.



From me

Well maybe we could have a civilized debate. I will respond more later but just a quick point:

I am not opposed in principle to polygamy. Provided people are consenting adults they can do what they like. How tax and inheritance would work is not something I have thought about, but I wouldn't be opposed to such arrangements in principle.

I believe in a free society. I doubt if you do. For instance, I predict you will be unable to answer simply "yes" to my next question.

Should homosexuality be legal in all countries, including Islamic-majority countries?

BTW You never answered the challenges I made to you on my website, where I ask you to say something reassuring, something that makes me think you believe in western liberal democracy.

For example, exactly which critics of Islam and Islamism should be allowed to speak, according to you? Give me a sample list.


From "Muslim in Ireland"

Mark: the possibility of a civilized debate is entirely up to you, though you've done little thus far to inspire confidence.
Might I ask if you truly believe in a free society, for example would you be content to allow a country to determine its own rule of law, even if it were Sharia?
If in the future, the majority of people in Ireland favoured Shariah as a rule of law, would you accept that, or would you oppose it? If you were to oppose it, how would the opposition manifest itself?



From me

Well I would like to keep it civilized. Even though you seem to have very simplistic and primitive beliefs about freedom, democracy and the separation of religion from the state, I would still hope that you might learn eventually what is so great about western free societies. Or if not you, some lurkers may be listening.

It seems to me that you and Liam (if you are different people) are confirming everyone's prejudices that Islam in Ireland is a threat to our ancient freedoms. No other minority religion is threatening to impose its doctrines on us by force of law. Are you two deliberately trying to spread fear of Islam?

Sharia should not even run Islamic-majority countries, let alone some hypothetical future Ireland. Your beliefs about an alleged supernatural world and alleged supernatural beings should be a private matter. You should be free to believe such things, but they should not be imposed on people who don't believe in these ancient stories.

I never said I think the majority should be able to do what it likes to the minority. I bet you don't believe that either. If the majority in Ireland voted to expel all Muslims, I would oppose it. I bet you would too. I believe in a free society. Democratic voting is simply a (fairly) reliable means to that end. Democracy is not sacred to me. The free society is what is sacred to me.

Sharia should be abolished in Iran, Pakistan, Sudan, Saudi Arabia and all other Islamic countries. It should be replaced with freedom of religion, free speech and freedom of sexuality. If you do not believe this, then you are a threat to my liberties. I pose no threat to your liberty. It is disgraceful for you to threaten mine.

If this website is meant to spread Islamophobia, it is doing a good job. Day after day, this website promotes the idea that Islam is a potential threat to all Irish people. You may be happy with this, but you are doing a grave disservice to the numerous Irish Muslims who do not threaten our freedom.

Mark Humphrys
http://markhumphrys.com/



From "Muslim in Ireland"

Mark, who made you the arbiter of what constitutes civilized? That's terribly presumptuous of you and a symptom of the problem - an arrogance of assumed superiority.

I'm not Liam and again you expose your arrogance in assuming that only one person thinks things are not as they should be. If you consider equality a threat (and I can understand how you might) then the fault lies with you as you've not demonstrated in what ways you have a right to remain dominant.

In what ways do you feel a belief in God is imposed upon you? Do you feel you have a right to impose your disbelief upon people?

Should not countries be allowed to determine their own rule of law without interference? Would you oppose Saudi Arabia imposing Sharia in Ireland on the same basis as you advocate democracy be imposed?

As you have expressed freely your opinions of Sharia, allow me the same liberty: properly implemented there is NO EQUAL to the liberty and justice that Sharia offers. Sadly,it has not been implemented fully for centuries and the western mix has resulted in the injustices people like you wrongly attribute to the Divine law.

As a Muslim living in Ireland, I live under the fiqh of minorities, perhaps if you were to read up on that instead of scaremongering you might see what you present is unwarranted - you are indeed a threat in that you incite hate for no apparent reason.

The website I hope will continue despite your misgivings. It fills a much needed void and serves as a voice for those who would otherwise be silenced.

Irish Muslims do a disservice to themselves and future generations by allowing individuals like you to advocate inequalities, promote assimilation and promote the destruction of our culture and belief. A growing number are saying enough, and sites such as yours are wonderful as recruitment tools - keep up the good work.



From me

To MPAC:

  1. I criticised you by saying that you go on about Israel all the time, and never mention the crimes of Islamic regimes and groups (who slaughter innocent Muslims, suicide bomb mosques, and so on). Your bizarre response: "Our concern is Ireland and how it treats its minorities, in particular its Muslim population, accordingly you will not find any reference to any country that does not have a direct bearing on the situation for Muslims here. We make no apologies for that." This is nonsense. Israel has no bearing whatsoever on the situation for Muslims in Ireland.

  2. You whine about being Muslim in Ireland: "assimilation is not the answer, for no matter what they do - they will always be considered different and never truly Irish." You have a real chip on your shoulder. Was Ben Briscoe considered "never truly Irish"? Of course not. He won elections as a TD for 37 years. No one had a problem with him. Why? Because he did not threaten other Irish people, as some immigrants do (e.g. anyone who believes in Sharia).

  3. Let me explain this simply. I don't care what religion you practice or what you look like. If you agree with the concept of a free society, freedom of religion and free speech, then we can all live happily here. If you don't, we can't. If you don't believe in those things, you are a threat to Irish freedoms. Anyone who believes in Sharia is a threat to Irish freedoms. Anyone reading MPAC will wonder do you really believe in a free society, or are you a threat to Ireland. You need to say something to reassure us. Go on. Say something to reassure us.

  4. I predicted you would be unable to answer "yes" to this question: "Should homosexuality be legal in all countries, including Islamic-majority countries?" My prediction was right.
  5. I asked you: "Exactly which critics of Islam and Islamism should be allowed to speak, according to you? Give me a sample list." You refused to answer.
  6. Everything MPAC says seems to confirm the fear that you are a threat to Irish freedom. Please, please, seriously, say something (anything!) to indicate you are not a threat to our hard-won freedoms.



From me

To "Muslim in Ireland":

  1. "Might I ask if you truly believe in a free society, for example would you be content to allow a country to determine its own rule of law, even if it were Sharia?" Sharia law has no right to exist in any country on earth. Is that clear enough? Religion should be a private matter and not forced on people by law. If you don't believe that, you are a threat to Irish freedoms. I pose no threat to your liberty. It is disgraceful for you to threaten mine.
  2. Anyone who supports Sharia, as you do, is spreading, not reducing, fear of Islam in Ireland. And then you complain that people are hostile to Islam! Well you're the one threatening them!
  3. There are also many Muslims and ex-Muslims in Ireland and the UK who came here to escape from sharia. You are threatening them as well.

  4. "If you consider equality a threat (and I can understand how you might) then the fault lies with you as you've not demonstrated in what ways you have a right to remain dominant." What on earth are you talking about? We already have equality. You and I are equal under the law. I am not in any way "dominant" over you.
  5. You are the one threatening that. You are the one saying that the ancient stories from your religion should be imposed on me and run my life. You are the one saying one religion (your one) should be dominant.
  6. "Do you feel you have a right to impose your disbelief upon people?" No. Not at all. Is that clear enough? You have a right to practice your religion, provided you leave me alone. I would be outraged if Ireland tried to prevent you practicing your religion.
  7. "you are indeed a threat in that you incite hate for no apparent reason." Rubbish. I am no threat to you. You are free to practice your religion. All we ask is that you leave other people alone to ignore your religion and practice their own, or none at all (like me).


From "Muslim in Ireland"

Sharia law has no right to exist in any country on earth. Is that clear enough? Religion should be a private matter and not forced on people by law. If you don't believe that, you are a threat to Irish freedoms. I pose no threat to your liberty. It is disgraceful for you to threaten mine.

— markhumphrys

On the contrary, you pose a very clear and present danger to all Muslims in Ireland in that you are willing to forcefully expel those who do not agree with your ideology (I must admit it would be fun to see you try :))As Muslims we are quite content to see you follow your religion, as you too should be willing to permit us. The only talk of restriction is coming from your corner.

2. Anyone who supports Sharia, as you do, is spreading, not reducing, fear of Islam in Ireland. And then you complain that people are hostile to Islam! Well you're the one threatening them!

What are you doing now, policing ideas? Yes, I support Shariah, yes I believe it is superior to ALL man-made laws, but NO, I do not see Shariah taking over except by the will of the people.

3. There are also many Muslims and ex-Muslims in Ireland and the UK who came here to escape from sharia. You are threatening them as well.

What a silly comment, the only threats are coming from you - threats of expulsion (again I'd love to see you try), threats of intolerance, threats, threats, threats and more threats. Now if you'd educate yourself on the Fiqh of minorities then you'd understand our position here, but that would be expecting too much wouldn't it. Much easier to scaremonger and distort.

4. "If you consider equality a threat (and I can understand how you might) then the fault lies with you as you've not demonstrated in what ways you have a right to remain dominant." What on earth are you talking about? We already have equality. You and I are equal under the law. I am not in any way "dominant" over you.

Sigh - would that we were, but then it requires some honesty to accept and admit that things are not how they should be. There is an inherent inequality in the application of the law that sees difference as somehow being worthy of less. It's always been that way, and the only way to bring about equality is to fight for it. You are right, you are not in any way dominant over me - it's only in your mind.

5. You are the one threatening that. You are the one saying that the ancient stories from your religion should be imposed on me and run my life. You are the one saying one religion (your one) should be dominant.

Not at all, to you your religion, to me mine. But I suspect you don't want it that way hence your desire to push me into the private sphere.

6. "Do you feel you have a right to impose your disbelief upon people?" No. Not at all. Is that clear enough? You have a right to practice your religion, provided you leave me alone. I would be outraged if Ireland tried to prevent you practicing your religion.

I haven't bothered you, but that hasn't stopped you writing nasty things about MPACIE, so evidently you while wanting to be left alone are wholly unwilling to reciprocate.

7. "you are indeed a threat in that you incite hate for no apparent reason." Rubbish. I am no threat to you. You are free to practice your religion. All we ask is that you leave other people alone to ignore your religion and practice their own, or none at all (like me).

You have been left alone. Remember it was your antagonistic post on your site that prompted this response, it would appear that you are a 'one rule for yourself and another for everyone else' kind of person. Shame on you.



From me

On immigration to the West, I am broadly pro-immigration. But I believe that immigrants who threaten Western freedoms, and want to end them, should not be let into the West, and should be deported if they are here. This is quite uncontroversial. Most people in the West would agree with this. Consider these surveys:
  1. Where foreigners stir up racial and religious hatred, 81 percent of Britons think they should be sent back to their own countries, even if to do so would endanger their lives:
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article730014.ece
  2. 71 percent of Britons want to exclude or deport from the UK foreign Muslims who incite hatred:
    http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2005-07/19/article01.shtml
  3. 62 percent of Britons support the deportation of foreigners who spread radical Islamist views, even if it means sending them back to countries that use torture:
    http://www.gopusa.com/news/2005/august/0823_britons_securityp.shtml

And this one may really surprise you:

  1. 65 percent of British Muslims agree with UK plans to deport militant Islamic clerics from the country:
    http://news.indiainfo.com/2005/09/18/1809bristish-muslims.html

Why does this bother you anyway? Why are you sticking up for people who threaten my freedom?

You claim you do not threaten my freedom myself. But you support sharia, so your claim is false.

Anyway, back to MPAC. Does it threaten my freedom or not? It's hard to say. This whole discussion will certainly make people more afraid of MPAC. This was your chance to put our minds at ease, and you blew it with your support for sharia.

Consider this: The majority of Britons (53 percent) feel threatened by Islam:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1527192/Islam-poses-a-threat-to-the-West-say-53pc-in-poll.html
Islam has only been in Britain for a couple of decades, and already it has burnt its bridges! That's because of sharia-threatening Muslims like you.

Also, 59 percent of Britons say all immigration should be halted:
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/196
which is far more extreme than my position. Much of the population is (or could easily swing) to the right of me on these issues. And people like you are encouraging that extreme reaction. All they hear day after day from sharia-threatening Muslims like you is the message loud and clear: "Yes you are right to fear Islam".

I try to argue the case: "No, fear Islamism, not Islam". But people like you don't make it easy for me.




(At this point the weirdo calls me a racist, so I think it's time to bail out.)

(Some other weirdo then says that under sharia, Ireland's pubs will all be closed down, sex will be policed by religious maniacs, and the gays will be rounded up, and that's why we should support it. Thanks for making my point for me!)



Postscript - MPAC and sharia

Is MPAC a threat to our freedom? They certainly talk as if they are. They say nothing to reassure us. Certainly, they make me more nervous about Islam in Ireland than I was before. (I'm sure they have that effect on every non-Muslim.) They are an organisation that is spreading, not reducing, fear of Islam in Ireland.


How to reduce fear of Islam in the West




A lovely Irish pub.
Under sharia, Ireland's pubs would all be closed down.
See full size. From here.
This is "Durty Nelly's" at Bunratty Castle, Co.Clare.





2nd Exchange with MPAC Ireland




Return to MPAC Ireland.


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